MBA Choice For Career Pivot/Europe as An American

Apanda1

12 13

Posted Jul 14, 2022 00:29

Hi everyone, I’m an American and just got into the full time MBA programs at IE, Bocconi and
ESADE. Looking to pivot careers after 12 years in CPG/beauty and medical device marketing to Consulting, Social Impact or Tech and ideally looking to stay in Europe or Australia post-grad: France, UK or Netherlands due to salary/quality of life ratio. Assuming similar aid
packages, which school would be best to aid in these goals? I'd love any thoughts and also experiences re: school culture/vibe too.

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Duncan

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Posted Jul 14, 2022 06:46

Study in the country where you want to work. These schools do not fit your goals.

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Apanda1

12 13

Posted Jul 14, 2022 14:46

I also was accepted into IESEG’s Leadership and Coding MBA program, but HEC and INSEAD’s programs would have a 5 week application process, which would surpass the time needed to let the other programs know/reserve a spot with my scholarships. Would doing an exchange program in a country of my desired future residence aid at all? I’ve kept on hearing to go to the best ranked school you get into vs the country you want to work in debate and unsure what to make of that. IESEG seems to be decently known in France but not so much outside of it, which is a slight concern if I don’t gain full French fluency to work in France post graduation, versus it seems the other schools seem to be better known throughout Europe?

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Duncan

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Posted Jul 15, 2022 00:34

You won't learn French studying in an English language campus. Study where you want to work to benefit from visas for local graduates.

You won't learn French studying in an English language campus.  Study where you want to work to benefit from visas for local graduates. 

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Apanda1

12 13

Posted Jul 15, 2022 00:41

If I do HHL in Germany or IESEG in France, assuming IE or ESADE won’t help me get a job in any of the countries I’d like to work in (or even in Spain due to their lack of post-student work visa), as those programs are also in English, is it not even worth it?

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Duncan

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Posted Jul 15, 2022 09:38

See the post linked on my profile page called Do you need to speak the local language. If they don't speak the business language, what work can a foreigner get in your country?

See the post linked on my profile page called Do you need to speak the local language.  If they don't speak the business language, what work can a foreigner get in your country?

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Apanda1

12 13

Posted Jul 17, 2022 01:16

See the post linked on my profile page called Do you need to speak the local language. If they don't speak the business language, what work can a foreigner get in your country?

I should mention I’m bilingual with Spanish, but as salaries are significantly less in Spain than Germany, Netherlands, Switzerland, UK et al. (more English speaking EU countries), I was likely looking at roles in those countries to pay off my MBA loans fastest. Both programs boast that international students make up the majority of their student bodies and don’t seek placement in Spain that much and primarily seek employment in countries I mentioned and do so successfully (high 80%+). What do you make of that? Admissions biz dev pitch? Given both are in the roughly top ten of international mobility, I was curious as to your take. Appreciate your wisdom as always.

[Edited by Apanda1 on Jul 17, 2022]

[quote]See the post linked on my profile page called Do you need to speak the local language.  If they don't speak the business language, what work can a foreigner get in your country? [/quote]<br><br>I should mention I’m bilingual with Spanish, but as salaries are significantly less in Spain than Germany, Netherlands, Switzerland, UK et al. (more English speaking EU countries), I was likely looking at roles in those countries to pay off my MBA loans fastest. Both programs boast that international students make up the majority of their student bodies and don’t seek placement in Spain that much and primarily seek employment in countries I mentioned and do so successfully (high 80%+). What do you make of that? Admissions biz dev pitch? Given both are in the roughly top ten of international mobility, I was curious as to your take. Appreciate your wisdom as always.

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Duncan

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Posted Jul 17, 2022 12:11

The post I mentioned addresses the EU countries. Why would someone hire you rather than someone who also spoke German or Dutch? European schools are good for mobility because Euorpeans firms can hire arivees from diaspora and former colonies already speaking our business languages, as well as those who learn it in Europe. Spanish firms might hire from Spanish schools for other countries, but they also favour people who speak the language of the target country.

The post I mentioned addresses the EU countries. Why would someone hire you rather than someone who also spoke German or Dutch? European schools are good for mobility because Euorpeans firms can hire arivees from diaspora and former colonies already speaking our business languages, as well as those who learn it in Europe.  Spanish firms might hire from Spanish schools for other countries, but they also favour people who speak the language of the target country. 

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Apanda1

12 13

Posted Jul 19, 2022 06:22

The post I mentioned addresses the EU countries. Why would someone hire you rather than someone who also spoke German or Dutch? European schools are good for mobility because Euorpeans firms can hire arivees from diaspora and former colonies already speaking our business languages, as well as those who learn it in Europe. Spanish firms might hire from Spanish schools for other countries, but they also favour people who speak the language of the target country.

[Edited by Apanda1 on Jul 19, 2022]

Also genuine question- if employers in any country in Europe anywhere I’d like to go wouldn’t hire me regardless of my student visa because of not having native fluency in their local language despite English being the most commonly used EU language, is it even worth trying to get a degree abroad if one is trying to relocate and pivot, especially given the Brexit uncertainty and reluctance of UK sponsors even with the visa revamp for non-EU?<br><br>[quote]The post I mentioned addresses the EU countries. Why would someone hire you rather than someone who also spoke German or Dutch? European schools are good for mobility because Euorpeans firms can hire arivees from diaspora and former colonies already speaking our business languages, as well as those who learn it in Europe.  Spanish firms might hire from Spanish schools for other countries, but they also favour people who speak the language of the target country.  [/quote]

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Duncan

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Posted Jul 19, 2022 11:12

One part of this is supply and demand. Labour shortages in the EU are most serious in Czechia, Germany, Poland, Malta and The Netherlands. Spain has the highest unemployment in the EU and Latin America offers a huge source of talent.

The best MBA opportunities in Germany are in the 50 miles either side of the Rhine (Stuttgart, Mannheim, Frankfurt, Koblenz, Cologne, Düsseldorf, etc) and in Munich. That's why the best German schools, and the German programmes of RSM, IESE and Kellogg, are established in the core cities of the West German economy.
ESCP moved from Düsseldorf to Berlin because (a) the conservative-led city council offered amazing real estate and rapid accreditation to tempt a business-minded business school in the city [business education in Germany was very oriented on macroeconomics and social responsibility] and (b) that's where Grandes Ecoles students want to spend a semester. The Berlin campus has been heavily French in composition for much of its life. Within Germany, Berlin and Bremen have the highest unemployment (worse than Italy, and almost three times higher than the US average). These are very attractive cities to young people, and many foreign students will take a double discount in salaries (one for weak German, and the other for the high supply of graduates) to work there.

And so the other element of this is to increase demand for you, personally. That means career strategy (turning an amorphous aspiration into a career goal). Christine Menges, head of career services at WHU, wrote this great book: https://www.routledge.com/The-Essential-Guide-to-Studying-Abroad-From-Success-in-the-Classroom-to/Klassen-Menges/p/book/9780367235161 The section on The Triple M Career Roadmap: Me, Market and Match is really helpful.

One part of this is supply and demand. Labour shortages in the EU are most serious in Czechia, Germany, Poland, Malta and The Netherlands. Spain has the highest unemployment in the EU and Latin America offers a huge source of talent. <br><br> The best MBA opportunities in Germany are in the 50 miles either side of the Rhine (Stuttgart, Mannheim, Frankfurt, Koblenz, Cologne, Düsseldorf, etc) and in Munich. That's why the best German schools, and the German programmes of RSM, IESE and Kellogg, are established in the core cities of the West German economy. <div><br></div><div>ESCP moved from Düsseldorf to Berlin because (a) the conservative-led city council offered amazing real estate and rapid accreditation to tempt a business-minded business school in the city [business education in Germany was very oriented on macroeconomics and social responsibility] and (b) that's where Grandes Ecoles students want to spend a semester. The Berlin campus has been heavily French in composition for much of its life. Within Germany, Berlin and Bremen have the highest unemployment (worse than Italy, and almost three times higher than the US average). These are very attractive cities to young people, and many foreign students will take a double discount in salaries (one for weak German, and the other for the high supply of graduates) to work there.<br><br>And so the other element of this is to increase demand for you, personally. That means career strategy (turning an amorphous aspiration into a career goal). Christine Menges, head of career services at WHU, wrote this great book: https://www.routledge.com/The-Essential-Guide-to-Studying-Abroad-From-Success-in-the-Classroom-to/Klassen-Menges/p/book/9780367235161 The section on The Triple M Career Roadmap: Me, Market and Match is really helpful. </div>

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Apanda1

12 13

Posted Sep 03, 2022 15:25

Thank you for this Duncan. If I may ask:

Heeding your advice between IE, ESCP and ESADE, I put my deposit down for ESADE and I am supposed to begin in a couple of weeks. However, INSEAD and HEC won´t give me my admissions decision until mid-late October- are their respective post-grad prospects better enough at INSEAD or HEC (assuming that I am able to get in) to leave ESADE and attend either of them if my goal is to relocate as an American in Europe and worth forfeiting part of my tuition/reservation for either? And if so, which? Ideally I'd like the stay in Europe, but assuming I'm somehow unable to find sponsorship, I'd want the ability to go back to the US with a recognized degree in hand.

One part of this is supply and demand. Labour shortages in the EU are most serious in Czechia, Germany, Poland, Malta and The Netherlands. Spain has the highest unemployment in the EU and Latin America offers a huge source of talent.

The best MBA opportunities in Germany are in the 50 miles either side of the Rhine (Stuttgart, Mannheim, Frankfurt, Koblenz, Cologne, Düsseldorf, etc) and in Munich. That's why the best German schools, and the German programmes of RSM, IESE and Kellogg, are established in the core cities of the West German economy.
ESCP moved from Düsseldorf to Berlin because (a) the conservative-led city council offered amazing real estate and rapid accreditation to tempt a business-minded business school in the city [business education in Germany was very oriented on macroeconomics and social responsibility] and (b) that's where Grandes Ecoles students want to spend a semester. The Berlin campus has been heavily French in composition for much of its life. Within Germany, Berlin and Bremen have the highest unemployment (worse than Italy, and almost three times higher than the US average). These are very attractive cities to young people, and many foreign students will take a double discount in salaries (one for weak German, and the other for the high supply of graduates) to work there.

And so the other element of this is to increase demand for you, personally. That means career strategy (turning an amorphous aspiration into a career goal). Christine Menges, head of career services at WHU, wrote this great book: https://www.routledge.com/The-Essential-Guide-to-Studying-Abroad-From-Success-in-the-Classroom-to/Klassen-Menges/p/book/9780367235161 The section on The Triple M Career Roadmap: Me, Market and Match is really helpful.

Thank you for this Duncan. If I may ask:<br><br>Heeding your advice between IE, ESCP and ESADE, I put my deposit down for ESADE and I am supposed to begin in a couple of weeks. However, INSEAD and HEC won´t give me my admissions decision until mid-late October- are their respective post-grad prospects better enough at INSEAD or HEC (assuming that I am able to get in) to leave ESADE and attend either of them if my goal is to relocate as an American in Europe and worth forfeiting part of my tuition/reservation for either? And if so, which? Ideally I'd like the stay in Europe, but assuming I'm somehow unable to find sponsorship, I'd want the ability to go back to the US with a recognized degree in hand.<br><br>[quote]One part of this is supply and demand. Labour shortages in the EU are most serious in Czechia, Germany, Poland, Malta and The Netherlands. Spain has the highest unemployment in the EU and Latin America offers a huge source of talent. <br><br> The best MBA opportunities in Germany are in the 50 miles either side of the Rhine (Stuttgart, Mannheim, Frankfurt, Koblenz, Cologne, Düsseldorf, etc) and in Munich. That's why the best German schools, and the German programmes of RSM, IESE and Kellogg, are established in the core cities of the West German economy. <div><br></div><div>ESCP moved from Düsseldorf to Berlin because (a) the conservative-led city council offered amazing real estate and rapid accreditation to tempt a business-minded business school in the city [business education in Germany was very oriented on macroeconomics and social responsibility] and (b) that's where Grandes Ecoles students want to spend a semester. The Berlin campus has been heavily French in composition for much of its life. Within Germany, Berlin and Bremen have the highest unemployment (worse than Italy, and almost three times higher than the US average). These are very attractive cities to young people, and many foreign students will take a double discount in salaries (one for weak German, and the other for the high supply of graduates) to work there.<br><br>And so the other element of this is to increase demand for you, personally. That means career strategy (turning an amorphous aspiration into a career goal). Christine Menges, head of career services at WHU, wrote this great book: https://www.routledge.com/The-Essential-Guide-to-Studying-Abroad-From-Success-in-the-Classroom-to/Klassen-Menges/p/book/9780367235161 The section on The Triple M Career Roadmap: Me, Market and Match is really helpful. </div> [/quote]

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Duncan

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Posted Sep 03, 2022 17:17

Other things being equal, Esade MBAs are as likely as HEC's to find work after their MBA, and both schools place more quickly than Instead. Unless your career goals have become more specific, Esade is a strong choice for someone who speaks Spanish and not French.

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Apanda1

12 13

Posted Sep 03, 2022 17:27

Other things being equal, Esade MBAs are as likely as HEC's to find work after their MBA, and both schools place more quickly than Instead. Unless your career goals have become more specific, Esade is a strong choice for someone who speaks Spanish and not French.

So helpful Duncan; thank you. Assuming I’m able to get to a professional degree of French (I’m somewhere around intermediate and taking classes now), am I at a disadvantage as a non-French program graduate from ESADE assuming I want to work in Paris after graduation (unable to be part of French visa scheme)? And is ESADE as a school/degree known or recognized as a top school in the UK, France, Germany by employers and and recruiters? Thanks again!<br><br><br>[quote]Other things being equal, Esade MBAs are as likely as HEC's to find work after their MBA, and both schools place more quickly than Instead. Unless your career goals have become more specific, Esade is a strong choice for someone who speaks Spanish and not French.  [/quote]

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Duncan

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Posted Sep 03, 2022 22:35

Indeed if a non European wants to work in France then a high qualification in the French language will be generally more valuable than an MBA, regardless of school. Esade is a strong school, and personally I think you would get a better education there than at HEC. However, a French degree gives you big advantages with work permits.

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Apanda1

12 13

Posted Dec 15, 2022 14:36

Hi Duncan, I started at ESADE and to be honest haven't been loving my time here/felt like I've not learned too much and I found out I was accepted into the HEC Cohort for January 23. As my background is in CPG/Beauty and would like to at the very least fall back on that given the tech industry being a mess at the moment and consulting probably being outside of my age range (they seem to prefer people in their 20s over 34+'s) with a relocation to Europe post-MBA, as L'Oreal and LVMH are in France and seem to have ties to HEC (whose rank has increased to #1 in Europe and #11 WW), does it make sense to switch to HEC for Jan and just absorbing the sunk cost of this semester at ESADE? Unsure if outcomes are that much better at HEC.

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Duncan

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Posted Dec 15, 2022 21:38

Ignore the sunk cost, obviously. Outcomes on average are better after HEC but I don't think the education is notably better in the MBA, having visited both MBAs. Networking is better at HEC, and it's much more about social capital. For that reason, language skills matter more there. Local accents count more. On paper it makes sense.

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Apanda1

12 13

Posted Dec 15, 2022 22:52

Ignore the sunk cost, obviously. Outcomes on average are better after HEC but I don't think the education is notably better in the MBA, having visited both MBAs. Networking is better at HEC, and it's much more about social capital. For that reason, language skills matter more there. Local accents count more. On paper it makes sense.

Thanks very much my friend. Always appreciate your insights and grateful for your help as always. I have one last question- Does HEC also place non-UK residents into London (understandably not as much as an LBS or UK school would)? I know Bocconi typically places well in London and am hedging bets a bit more on EU vs London given recession and visa being a bit more challenging in UK with the new scheme I hear.<br><br>Congratulations on the PhD focus by the way, will miss your wit and sage advice considerably!<br><br>[quote]Ignore the sunk cost, obviously. Outcomes on average are better after HEC but I don't think the education is notably better in the MBA, having visited both MBAs. Networking is better at HEC, and it's much more about social capital. For that reason, language skills matter more there. Local accents count more. On paper it makes sense.  [/quote]

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Duncan

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Posted Dec 16, 2022 07:05

Post Brexit I think all the EU schools are placing much less into the UK, and the fall of the pound makes it less attractive to people paying off debt. I think most of the demand for b school grads in the UK is for quant skill.

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