Should I accept or retry

Duncan

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Posted Apr 17, 2023 10:25

I don't understand why applicants are uncertain about the UK post-study work visa. There's always a discussion in the UK about how to optimize these visas. The number of visas granted rises year after year and, since Brexit, employers in the UK open increasingly open to hiring people in visas. The only changes being mooted by the government don't impact most MBA applicants. They are: [a] limiting students' ability to bring family members with them and reducing the provision of places on courses with the lowest employment, like classics.

Indeed, salaries in luxury are not high but, if that's your career goal, you simply have to accept it. Since healthcare management in Europe is primarily non-profit, can it be the case the salaries will be higher in French healthcare?

Read my post on how to use LinkedIn. Because the ESCP MBA does not has the year in the UK required for the PSWV, it will not often place into the NHS.

I don't understand why applicants are uncertain about the UK post-study work visa. There's always a discussion in the UK about how to optimize these visas. The number of visas granted rises year after year and, since Brexit, employers in the UK open increasingly open to hiring people in visas. The only changes being mooted by the government don't impact most MBA applicants. They are: [a] limiting students' ability to bring family members with them and [b] reducing the provision of places on courses with the lowest employment, like classics.  Indeed, salaries in luxury are not high but, if that's your career goal, you simply have to accept it. Since healthcare management in Europe is primarily non-profit, can it be the case the salaries will be higher in French healthcare? Read my post on how to use LinkedIn. Because the ESCP MBA does not has the year in the UK required for the PSWV, it will not often place into the NHS.

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booksfreak

13 26

Posted Apr 17, 2023 13:59

Apologies if I sounded vague.
What I read online was that a proposition to change the psw from 2 years to 6 months is submitted on the parliament. Hence my fear.

When I had contacted a few schools during the initial process like Emlyon, Edhec the schools told me that most of their Indian alumni move to UK easily. This got me thinking that it is fairly easy to shift from France (after MBA) to UK. Am I wrong to think?

Apologies if I sounded vague. What I read online was that a proposition to change the psw from 2 years to 6 months is submitted on the parliament. Hence my fear. When I had contacted a few schools during the initial process like Emlyon, Edhec the schools told me that most of their Indian alumni move to UK easily. This got me thinking that it is fairly easy to shift from France (after MBA) to UK. Am I wrong to think?

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Duncan

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Posted Apr 17, 2023 14:21

What I read online was that a proposition to change the psw from 2 years to 6 months is submitted on the parliament.

No such proposal has been submitted to Parliament and, of course, only laws with the support of the government get passed. I am sure that someone has said that something like that is an option, but doing so totally goes against the trend of UK government policy and UK employers' interests.

[quote]What I read online was that a proposition to change the psw from 2 years to 6 months is submitted on the parliament.[/quote] No such proposal has been submitted to Parliament and, of course, only laws with the support of the government get passed. I am sure that someone has said that something like that is an option, but doing so totally goes against the trend of UK government policy and UK employers' interests.

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booksfreak

13 26

Posted Apr 17, 2023 14:40

Thanks, whats your opinion on Indian students moving to UK after a french degree? I have paid my deposit to ESCP but I am still weighing my options.

Given the above case if I have to look for a MBA in UK (which will give me flexibility) which one would you recommend? I had tried Saïd BS but was rejected. LBS seems far reach with my GRE score.

Warwick and Imperial were in my radar but I felt ESCP is more diverse in terms of its student placement and diversity.

Thanks, whats your opinion on Indian students moving to UK after a french degree? I have paid my deposit to ESCP but I am still weighing my options. Given the above case if I have to look for a MBA in UK (which will give me flexibility) which one would you recommend? I had tried Saïd BS but was rejected. LBS seems far reach with my GRE score. Warwick and Imperial were in my radar but I felt ESCP is more diverse in terms of its student placement and diversity.

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Duncan

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Posted Apr 17, 2023 16:01

Well, the issue is really the visa rather than the degree. For example, a French degree with one year in the UK gets the PSWV and that is much easier to hire from.

I guess it's slightly more relevant to apply from France than from India but you would look as if you were prioritising France.

Well, the issue is really the visa rather than the degree.  For example, a French degree with one year in the UK gets the PSWV and that is much easier to hire from.  I guess it's slightly more relevant to apply from France than from India but you would look as if you were prioritising France.

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booksfreak

13 26

Posted Apr 17, 2023 17:05

The prioritising could also depend on cost right?. Because I did check Msc Marketing in Imperial and Warwick after Obinna’s recommendation and the fee is almost the same as the ESCP MBA (with my scholarship).

I was checking with the ESCP London about the visa process for UK last month, their course is updated (FT with online option as well) and may require staying in UK above 6 months but definitely less than 12. So it’s a little unclear about UK visa yet.

That’s why I am a little confused. The top bschools of France vs schools in UK (excluding Oxbridge and LBS). Priority relocation and career switch.
Also taking the latest FT rankings with a pinch of salt.

[Edited by booksfreak on Apr 17, 2023]

The prioritising could also depend on cost right?. Because I did check Msc Marketing in Imperial and Warwick after Obinna’s recommendation and the fee is almost the same as the ESCP MBA (with my scholarship). I was checking with the ESCP London about the visa process for UK last month, their course is updated  (FT with online option as well) and may require staying in UK above 6 months but definitely less than 12. So it’s a little unclear about UK visa yet. That’s why I am a little confused. The top bschools of France vs schools in UK (excluding Oxbridge and LBS). Priority relocation and career switch. Also taking the latest FT rankings with a pinch of salt.

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Duncan

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Posted Apr 17, 2023 19:14

No, I don't think cost is a variable you should consider. The differences in cost are tiny compared to the differences in outcome. Typically, a small extra investment greatly uplifts school quality and overall outcomes.

I don't get your point about things being unclear on the UK visa. If you have less than 12 months studying in the UK then you won't get the PSWV. They won't let you enter the UK for online-only courses.

I don't understand why you take the FT rankings with a pinch of salt. These are the most diligently collected data available. They don't include all the information someone needs to select a school, any more than a speedometer tells you everything you need to drive. But that doesn't mean your speedometer is broken.

No, I don't think cost is a variable you should consider. The differences in cost are tiny compared to the differences in outcome. Typically, a small extra investment greatly uplifts school quality and overall outcomes.  I don't get your point about things being unclear on the UK visa. If you have less than 12 months studying in the UK then you won't get the PSWV. They won't let you enter the UK for online-only courses.  I don't understand why you take the FT rankings with a pinch of salt. These are the most diligently collected data available. They don't include all the information someone needs to select a school, any more than a speedometer tells you everything you need to drive. But that doesn't mean your speedometer is broken.

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booksfreak

13 26

Posted Apr 17, 2023 19:51

Thanks again for enlightening me about FT rankings :) Really appreciate your effort, Thanks!
So Escp MBA ranks 27 in the world, as per FT rankings. In fact, ranked at par with Oxford Said this year.
I assumed higher-ranked MBAs provide higher international mobility. Would I be wrong to think this?
Would you say Msc Marketing Imperial > Escp MBA in value given my case, keeping PSWV aside? (UK degrees are more renowned globally and in my country)

Thanks again for enlightening me about FT rankings :) Really appreciate your effort, Thanks! So Escp MBA ranks 27 in the world, as per FT rankings. In fact, ranked at par with Oxford Said this year. I assumed higher-ranked MBAs provide higher international mobility. Would I be wrong to think this? Would you say Msc Marketing Imperial > Escp MBA in value given my case, keeping PSWV aside? (UK degrees are more renowned globally and in my country)

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Duncan

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Posted Apr 17, 2023 20:57

You could download the FT global MBA ranking and run a regression analysis. Since mobility is one of the variables in the model, is will be correlated with the output ranking. But not every MBA will have higher mobility than the schools below it.

Your stated goal was to "relocate to UK or continental Europe to gain experience in the consumer goods/luxury industry." As I've said, ESCP is a better option than Imperial.

You could download the FT global MBA ranking and run a regression analysis. Since mobility is one of the variables in the model, is will be correlated with the output ranking. But not every MBA will have higher mobility than the schools below it.  Your stated goal was to "relocate to UK or continental Europe to gain experience in the consumer goods/luxury industry." As I've said, ESCP is a better option than Imperial.

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overlord47

62 33

Posted Apr 17, 2023 21:12

Hello,

I have been following this thread for quite sometime and I have to say the following things about the same:
1. The ESCP MBA programme is relatively new and have been in the ranking system for the past 2 years so we can't compare it with the rest of the big players like LBS, Cambridge, Oxford, etc. I would not even compare it with the likes of Warwick, AMBS, Imperial, Bayes, Durham, Lancaster, etc. We have to wait for a few more years and see how the ESCP MBA performs to draw a definitive conclusion.
2. Regarding your aspirations for working in the UK as Duncan and Obinna have mentioned earlier you need to study in the UK for at least 12 months in order to gain the PSWV which I am afraid you won't be able to achieve if you study in the ESCP MBA. So their suggestion to study an MSc degree in Marketing won't be a bad option.
3. And finally you need to decide which pathway you want to pursue and which will be the best outcome for you. If you really want to work in the UK post your MBA degree then I would suggest you should look for other programmes as ESCP imo won't be the best option here.
All the best to you !!

Hello, I have been following this thread for quite sometime and I have to say the following things about the same: 1. The ESCP MBA programme is relatively new and have been in the ranking system for the past 2 years so we can't compare it with the rest of the big players like LBS, Cambridge, Oxford, etc. I would not even compare it with the likes of Warwick, AMBS, Imperial, Bayes, Durham, Lancaster, etc. We have to wait for a few more years and see how the ESCP MBA performs to draw a definitive conclusion. 2. Regarding your aspirations for working in the UK as Duncan and Obinna have mentioned earlier you need to study in the UK for at least 12 months in order to gain the PSWV which I am afraid you won't be able to achieve if you study in the ESCP MBA. So their suggestion to study an MSc degree in Marketing won't be a bad option. 3. And finally you need to decide which pathway you want to pursue and which will be the best outcome for you. If you really want to work in the UK post your MBA degree then I would suggest you should look for other programmes as ESCP imo won't be the best option here.  All the best to you !!

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Duncan

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Posted Apr 17, 2023 21:58

ESCP's MBA is one of the oldest in Europe, founded in the 1970s by EAP and relaunched in 2005 after the rebrand of ESCP-EAP.

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overlord47

62 33

Posted Apr 17, 2023 22:49

Hi Duncan,

I am talking about the ESCP Europe MBA which if I am not wrong had it's inaugural batch in the year 2018 and was first ranked by FT in 2022, in that sense it's a relatively new programme. The one you are talking about was ranked way back in 2005 by FT !!

[Edited by overlord47 on Apr 17, 2023]

Hi Duncan, I am talking about the ESCP Europe MBA which if I am not wrong had it's inaugural batch in the year 2018 and was first ranked by FT in 2022, in that sense it's a relatively new programme. The one you are talking about was ranked way back in 2005 by FT !!

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booksfreak

13 26

Posted Apr 17, 2023 23:16

Even I had concerns about that but what I feel is it is an old and solid Business school, it offered MEB (European Business) earlier but revamped as MBA IB.
The reason I was leaning towards a French MBA (mainly HEC) is because of their luxury and international mobility. Most UK schools ( as per my discussions with alumni) placed students in Consulting, Tech or Consulting, Finance with an exception to LBS and a maybe Imperial.
I want a Bschool which gives me access to both UK and EU market (job opportunities) incase I feel I can’t handle the French work atmosphere. Since I see alot of Indians (from HEC move to London) and other schools mentioned the same. Although I speak French I would prefer EMEA teams with diversity and prefer to work in English
@Duncan when you say ESCP you mean MBA right to Msc/MBA Imperial.

[Edited by booksfreak on Apr 17, 2023]

Even I had concerns about that but what I feel is it is an old and solid Business school, it offered MEB (European Business) earlier but revamped as MBA IB.  The reason I was leaning towards a French MBA (mainly HEC) is because of their luxury and international mobility. Most UK schools ( as per my discussions with alumni) placed students in Consulting, Tech or Consulting, Finance with an exception to LBS and a maybe Imperial.  I want a Bschool which gives me access to both UK and EU market (job opportunities) incase I feel I can’t handle the French work atmosphere. Since I see alot of Indians (from HEC move to London) and other schools mentioned the same. Although I speak French I would prefer EMEA teams with diversity and prefer to work in English @Duncan when you say ESCP you mean MBA right to Msc/MBA Imperial.

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Duncan

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Posted Apr 18, 2023 09:56

ESCP has paused and relaunched its full time MBA a few times, but its continually been in the MBA market and (as ESSEC does with the SMIB) offered something like the MBA for a slightly younger audience. But, although you cannot doubt ESCP's quality, the key question remains each school's network and how far it reflects your career goals better than other schools.

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overlord47

62 33

Posted Apr 18, 2023 11:38

Hi Duncan if you refer to the FT ranking then ESCP's ranking from 1999 (the inaugural year of FT rankings) till 2005 (the year ESCP's ranking were last reported by FT before resuming from 2022) wasn't that great and from 2006 till 2022 for more than a decade the ESCP MBA wasn't ranked by FT. So regarding its reputation outside France, it's network, etc. we don't have much knowledge nor factual data to back the claims. We have to give at least another 6-8 years to the ESCP MBA to see how it performs globally. If it shows consistent good performance then we can admit that it's a good MBA programme but at the moment we don't have much information about its "GLOBAL REPUTATION" having said that in France it's regarded a good MBA programme but then again many programmes are regarded good in the regional market but the global scenario is totally different.

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booksfreak

13 26

Posted Apr 18, 2023 13:41

ESCP has tie ups with IIM’s in India for their exchange
would this be of any help in brand value and opportunities, if ever I plan to come back to India?
@Ducan

When I connected with Said Bs alumni they told me the school’s name get them a call easily but they don’t know many from retail industry (a handful choose retail). In general would you recommend a top school with brand value or schools with majority alumni base in the industry.

ESCP has tie ups with IIM’s in India for their exchange would this be of any help in brand value and opportunities, if ever I plan to come back to India? @Ducan When I connected with Said Bs alumni they told me the school’s name get them a call easily but they don’t know many from retail industry (a handful choose retail). In general would you recommend a top school with brand value or schools with majority alumni base in the industry.

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Duncan

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Posted Apr 18, 2023 15:32

HWe have to give at least another 6-8 years to the ESCP MBA to see how it performs globally. If it shows consistent good performance then we can admit that it's a good MBA programme but at the moment we don't have much information about its "GLOBAL REPUTATION" having said that in France it's regarded a good MBA programme but then again many programmes are regarded good in the regional market but the global scenario is totally different.

This thread isn't really about global reputation: it's about one person who wants to work in the European luxury market. Their most immediate choices are things like the ESCP MBA and the Imperial College MSc in marketing. And the key variable here is really which programme has the best student, alumni and employer network to place them. Ranking are really useful, but it's mistaken to subordinate this role-focussed view to rankings. UCLA might be higher ranked and more enduringly than ESCP, but it's a weaker choice for this person's goal.

The ESCP and EAP MBAs have not been set up for success in the FT ranking. They are small programmes, reflecting the modest demand for monolingual anglophone talent in France, and they have lacked at times the scale and cohort structure needed for the FT ranking.

If you think that the Imperial MSc is a better option for entry into European luxe than the ESCP MBA, then please say a bit more about that.

[quote]HWe have to give at least another 6-8 years to the ESCP MBA to see how it performs globally. If it shows consistent good performance then we can admit that it's a good MBA programme but at the moment we don't have much information about its "GLOBAL REPUTATION" having said that in France it's regarded a good MBA programme but then again many programmes are regarded good in the regional market but the global scenario is totally different.  [/quote] This thread isn't really about global reputation: it's about one person who wants to work in the European luxury market. Their most immediate choices are things like the ESCP MBA and the Imperial College MSc in marketing. And the key variable here is really which programme has the best student, alumni and employer network to place them. Ranking are really useful, but it's mistaken to subordinate this role-focussed view to rankings. UCLA might be higher ranked and more enduringly than ESCP, but it's a weaker choice for this person's goal.  The ESCP and EAP MBAs have not been set up for success in the FT ranking. They are small programmes, reflecting the modest demand for monolingual anglophone talent in France, and they have lacked at times the scale and cohort structure needed for the FT ranking.  If you think that the Imperial MSc is a better option for entry into European luxe than the ESCP MBA, then please say a bit more about that.

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Duncan

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Posted Apr 18, 2023 15:37

In general would you recommend a top school with brand value or schools with majority alumni base in the industry.

The key variable here is really which programme has the best student, alumni and employer network to place them. Oxford MBAs probably don't put calls into EU lux employers very often. Look at where they place: this is not where you want to be. https://www.sbs.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/files/2022-08/mba-employment-report-20-21.pdf

[quote] In general would you recommend a top school with brand value or schools with majority alumni base in the industry. [/quote] 
<div>
</div><div>The key variable here is really which programme has the best student, alumni and employer network to place them. Oxford MBAs probably don't put calls into EU lux employers very often. Look at where they place: this is not where you want to be. https://www.sbs.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/files/2022-08/mba-employment-report-20-21.pdf </div><div> </div><div>
</div>

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overlord47

62 33

Posted Apr 18, 2023 16:57

HWe have to give at least another 6-8 years to the ESCP MBA to see how it performs globally. If it shows consistent good performance then we can admit that it's a good MBA programme but at the moment we don't have much information about its "GLOBAL REPUTATION" having said that in France it's regarded a good MBA programme but then again many programmes are regarded good in the regional market but the global scenario is totally different.

This thread isn't really about global reputation: it's about one person who wants to work in the European luxury market. Their most immediate choices are things like the ESCP MBA and the Imperial College MSc in marketing. And the key variable here is really which programme has the best student, alumni and employer network to place them. Ranking are really useful, but it's mistaken to subordinate this role-focussed view to rankings. UCLA might be higher ranked and more enduringly than ESCP, but it's a weaker choice for this person's goal.

The ESCP and EAP MBAs have not been set up for success in the FT ranking. They are small programmes, reflecting the modest demand for monolingual anglophone talent in France, and they have lacked at times the scale and cohort structure needed for the FT ranking.

If you think that the Imperial MSc is a better option for entry into European luxe than the ESCP MBA, then please say a bit more about that.

Well the person here wants to work in other European countries as well and in that regard I think ESCP MBA won't be a good option. If the candidate wants to work and settle in France then this programme is good but for international exposure I still have my reservations.

In my opinion the Executive Masters in Luxury Management from SDA Bocconi would be a much better option for a candidate who wants to pursue a career in this field and that too internationally.

[quote][quote]HWe have to give at least another 6-8 years to the ESCP MBA to see how it performs globally. If it shows consistent good performance then we can admit that it's a good MBA programme but at the moment we don't have much information about its "GLOBAL REPUTATION" having said that in France it's regarded a good MBA programme but then again many programmes are regarded good in the regional market but the global scenario is totally different.  [/quote] This thread isn't really about global reputation: it's about one person who wants to work in the European luxury market. Their most immediate choices are things like the ESCP MBA and the Imperial College MSc in marketing. And the key variable here is really which programme has the best student, alumni and employer network to place them. Ranking are really useful, but it's mistaken to subordinate this role-focussed view to rankings. UCLA might be higher ranked and more enduringly than ESCP, but it's a weaker choice for this person's goal.  The ESCP and EAP MBAs have not been set up for success in the FT ranking. They are small programmes, reflecting the modest demand for monolingual anglophone talent in France, and they have lacked at times the scale and cohort structure needed for the FT ranking.  If you think that the Imperial MSc is a better option for entry into European luxe than the ESCP MBA, then please say a bit more about that.  [/quote] Well the person here wants to work in other European countries as well and in that regard I think ESCP MBA won't be a good option. If the candidate wants to work and settle in France then this programme is good but for international exposure I still have my reservations.  In my opinion the Executive Masters in Luxury Management from SDA Bocconi would be a much better option for a candidate who wants to pursue a career in this field and that too internationally.

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Duncan

14.013 15.475

Posted Apr 18, 2023 18:26

A full-time degree in France would give this person access to the VLT-TS post-study work visa. A part-time degree won't do that, especially since this person might benefit from a full-time student visa also so they can network and meet employers and alumni.

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