Ex-student's review: How good is Warwick's MSc Management?

Finp

16 11

Posted May 19, 2011 20:10

How good is Warwick's MSc Management??!

This is exactly the question I asked myself 1.5 years ago when I was preparing to pay £16,200 for an MSc in Management at Warwick. Everywhere I got the answer as "excellent or very good" and hence I decided to take the plunge. 6 months after graduating I feel cheated by the business school and now at home jobless. Let me tell you my story.

I am an international student and I decided to go to the UK to study for MSc Management. I chose Warwick because it has "triple accreditation". Prior taking admission, throughout my email exchanges with the school's staff - Jez Todd et al, had been very nice to me and I gave in to them believing that the school is a good investment in my career. Well its not!

1. The school is for rich kids, mostly rich Indian kids who just wants to get a one year expensive international holiday and doesn't bother about academic standard. Almost 90% of the kids have family business back home so no one bothers about group work or assignments. (50% of the MSc Management class is Indian so forget about the so called "international learning experience")

2. Almost no good case studies were discussed in the class. We were given case studies (some of them were from ICFAI B school, Hyderabad, India) and were do to "pre-read" before coming to class to understand the concepts, but NO discussions.

3. Almost NO mathematics is included in the curriculum. Within Marketing module, marketing research was not even taught! In finance, nothing related to derivatives, commodities, futures, options, securities were taught! Everything were taught so superficially that we ended up being jack of all trades!

4. The personal tutors were not at all bothered to help in dissertations/project work. Some tutors were so arrogant that they not only refused to meet the students, but declined to reply to student's emails.

5. The University/b school has zero assistance facilities to provide jobs/internships to the international students. Warwick's interest in the international students ends as soon as fees are cleared. There were not a single employer engagement activity exclusively for the MSc Management students. The school provides tons of useless advice in preparing CVs & Cover letters which can easily be found in CV writing books.

As an alumnus of Warwick B School, its my advice to the aspirants to avoid this school like plague. Its expensive and its MSc degree has absolutely NO advantage against MSc degrees of other schools.

From 2011, UK has stopped issuing sponsored UK work permits to international students, so if you are an international student and hope to gain international work experience after graduating from the so called elite Warwick Business School... well, let me give you the bad news, its not gonna happen. At the most you can expect to work full time at the Domino's, McDonald's, KFC etc as a waiter with your PSW visa. Many of my classmates are doing so.

Don't get fooled by the "triple accreditation" term, employers don't care. Save your money and your future. Stay away from Warwick.

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asif.nazir...

45 89

Posted May 19, 2011 22:11

Hi Finp,

Sad to hear your story, and quite shocked to read such an account of what is touted to be one of the best B-schools in UK.

Did you not complain to the B-School during the course when you felt that you are being taken for a ride?, and I know that employment is a hard topic in UK as of now, but was the course really so bad that you didn't gain anything from it?

Student diversity in UK B-schools is a farce. It is only India, China, and some other Asian countries that comprise most of the B-Schools in Britain; even in case of Oxbridge.

Well, I can only wish you better things in the future, and hope you'll find a great job soon.

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Finp

16 11

Posted May 21, 2011 11:31

Hello Asif,

Thanks for your kind wishes.

Warwick has something they call "Staff-Student Liaison Committee" or SSLC in short. The committee is composed of a few professors and students where they discuss the student issues.

I have several friends who were in the SSLC and such meetings were held for the name-sake. The University authorities never used to take any of the issues seriously. For example, one of the module instructor was a very poor teacher and used a ridiculous teaching methodology. There were lots and lots of complains against her. But not a single step was taken, we were told that nothing could be done now which is just a polite way of telling: "shut the fuck up".

There are a lot of things which goes on behind the rankings. The course is super-hyped and is not worth the money. Reading materials were substandard and teaching quality was very very poor. For example, guys who took operations management module as an elective in their first term (taught by Jannis Angelis) were not taught about the "bull-whip effect" in the supply chain management chapter even though the bull whip effect is the single most important concept in the subject.

As an alumnus of the Warwick Business School, I would never advice anyone take admission in their MSc Management programme. Its all waste - time, money & energy; at the end you will earn a degree certificate which is not worth for a job in any job sector due to lack of specialization. The school has absolutely pathetic alumni networking opportunities/events, they are just after the students' money.

Finp

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wbsmim2010

6 1

Posted May 23, 2011 15:31

well what i read from my friend finp is a classic case of bad luck. i would recommend this course to all as some of the best professors have been on it and have taught us. the course is NOT a specialisation and that is something one should keep in mind while applying. the course covers a broader spectrum in general management. guys like colin egan are professors in marketing who are ranked as the best in the world. about teaching all i can say is the profs take a lot of interest if one is ready to learn. also the class is not 50% indian. my friend finp has his facts wrong. there are people from over 20 nationalities in the course from various backgrounds and what i can say is its about 50% asians. i feel this is a very wrong place to air frustations and very wrong in saying people come for a holiday. i think my friend had wrong expections form the course. it clearly says on the website that part of it is mathematics and if you had to do a mathematical course there are many other courses in WBS to choose from. coming to jobs, i agree it is a little tough to get something but not impossible. one has to be persistent and patient. i have got 2 jobs all thanks to this course and i can help anyone and everyone who needs help regardig jobs. there are many companies who come on campus to give talks and one must go there and build contacts as that is something that helps a lot. also there are internships which the careers guys advertise and many of us have got them. i would say this is a fantastic course and one will learn a lot.

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Finp

16 11

Posted May 23, 2011 15:56

And the school's marketing team came to a student led forum to do the promotion for itself pretending to be a student. bravo!

Colin Egan, the marketing professor, didn't use a single Harvard Business Review case-study to teach marketing. He didn't even teach Marketing Research to the class. And if you say "he is ranked as the best in the world", I would like to ask you by what standard is he regarded the best???!! perhaps by your standard.

Not just marketing, another poorly taught module was Economics. The instructor was so pathetic that he couldn't even prepare proper slides, there were so many mistakes in his lecture slides that people gave up on attending his lectures.

A nonsense b school is running a nonsense course at a nonsense place for nonsense people so that they can build nonsense career.

Finp

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Finp

16 11

Posted Jul 02, 2011 21:02

I have received some private messages, but I can't reply to each and every msgs. Everything is out in open for you to see and verify, there is no need to send private messages to me. As for those who is sceptical of me because he/she has received glorious reviews of the school from some other alumnus, well you have no idea how the alumni system of a business school works.

Even I also spoke to an alumnus before I took admission and that guy said very nice things about WBS but they were all lies. Alumni are generally told to say such things by the school/Uni to get more students and hence generate more revenue by making new students pay ever increasing fees.

My job is only to tell you, whether you accept it or not is upto you. If you really wish to ruin your future after spending £18500+ , no one is really stopping you of course because its your money. Spend as you wish.

This is my last post on this forum.

Bye.

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ejr

8 6

Posted Jul 04, 2011 11:23

Finp, whilst your account is appreciated, you come across as having a chip on your shoulder.

99.9% of Masters education cannot guarantee graduate employment post program. The emphasis is solely on the graduate to establish contact with employers.

The reality is you had a great opportunity to study in a leading UK business school, which has a stellar reputation and educational standards.

Don't blame the school for your lack of employment. From my perspective you have to change your attitude. I'm not sure what country you are from but being a Warwick alumni should hold some weight. HOWEVER the school brand will never secure you a job alone.

Forget about the past. You have graduated with a business masters from a top school. Focus on your strengths and what value you can add. Jobs will come.

A MSc Management course in the UK is a conversion course meaning aspects of modules are not as detailed as specialized business Masters in their respective functional areas. I have not seen the module structure at WBS for Management but I would expect it to be relatively comprehensive. I expect they provide a solid FOUNDATION where a candidate is able supplement with further reading and also networking with students from other MSc courses.

Realise you were very lucky to study in the UK for a year. Stop blaming the school for being unable to secure employment. Blame yourself, your cv, your approach and your attitude?

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Finp

16 11

Posted Jul 05, 2011 08:27

Realise you were very lucky to study in the UK for a year.

Lucky?!! why so?! Anyone who speaks English and has money can study in England. There is nothing being lucky about it.

Stop blaming the school for being unable to secure employment. Blame yourself, your cv, your approach and your attitude?

I recently came across an MBA from another British B School who is unemployed for 1.5 years. So as you see its very easy for you to be smart and advice nonsense on the web but when the same thing happens to you after spending £16.2K, you will feel the pinch for yourself; then come and talk the same and I will be listening. Brand name does not hold any weight, knowledge does. Warwick is swept by clever marketing strategies in media and rankings which has fooled many, but when it comes to teaching quality its substandard.

<blockquote>Realise you were very lucky to study in the UK for a year. </blockquote>
Lucky?!! why so?! Anyone who speaks English and has money can study in England. There is nothing being lucky about it.

<blockquote>Stop blaming the school for being unable to secure employment. Blame yourself, your cv, your approach and your attitude?</blockquote>
I recently came across an MBA from another British B School who is unemployed for 1.5 years. So as you see its very easy for you to be smart and advice nonsense on the web but when the same thing happens to you after spending £16.2K, you will feel the pinch for yourself; then come and talk the same and I will be listening. Brand name does not hold any weight, knowledge does. Warwick is swept by clever marketing strategies in media and rankings which has fooled many, but when it comes to teaching quality its substandard.

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acropolis....

17 4

Posted Jul 05, 2011 13:54

hey, can you mention your country of origin.
your post clearly reveals negative aspects of Warwick business school. i got an offer for its Msc Management course this fall, but opted it out due to bad nob situation in UK. most of them whom i contacted, were in favor of WBS. but i was a bit shocked by your post. Any way thanks for the insights.

Good luck with your job search.

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ejr

8 6

Posted Jul 05, 2011 14:48

Realise you were very lucky to study in the UK for a year.

Lucky?!! why so?! Anyone who speaks English and has money can study in England. There is nothing being lucky about it.

Stop blaming the school for being unable to secure employment. Blame yourself, your cv, your approach and your attitude?

I recently came across an MBA from another British B School who is unemployed for 1.5 years. So as you see its very easy for you to be smart and advice nonsense on the web but when the same thing happens to you after spending £16.2K, you will feel the pinch for yourself; then come and talk the same and I will be listening. Brand name does not hold any weight, knowledge does. Warwick is swept by clever marketing strategies in media and rankings which has fooled many, but when it comes to teaching quality its substandard.

It is not about me trying to be smart. I agree the MSc at Warwick may be over-priced for what they offer. Your paying a premium for the Warwick brand.

However I do think you have to start looking at your own approach to explain why you have not found a job.

We live in a blame culture where everything is someone elses fault and not theirs.

And by the way you lead a charmed life. The reality is that there are millions worldwide who cant even afford to FEED and HOUSE themselves. So yes you are extremely lucky and privileged to have been able study in the UK. Get some perspective.

<blockquote><blockquote>Realise you were very lucky to study in the UK for a year. </blockquote>
Lucky?!! why so?! Anyone who speaks English and has money can study in England. There is nothing being lucky about it.

<blockquote>Stop blaming the school for being unable to secure employment. Blame yourself, your cv, your approach and your attitude?</blockquote>
I recently came across an MBA from another British B School who is unemployed for 1.5 years. So as you see its very easy for you to be smart and advice nonsense on the web but when the same thing happens to you after spending £16.2K, you will feel the pinch for yourself; then come and talk the same and I will be listening. Brand name does not hold any weight, knowledge does. Warwick is swept by clever marketing strategies in media and rankings which has fooled many, but when it comes to teaching quality its substandard. </blockquote>

It is not about me trying to be smart. I agree the MSc at Warwick may be over-priced for what they offer. Your paying a premium for the Warwick brand.

However I do think you have to start looking at your own approach to explain why you have not found a job.

We live in a blame culture where everything is someone elses fault and not theirs.

And by the way you lead a charmed life. The reality is that there are millions worldwide who cant even afford to FEED and HOUSE themselves. So yes you are extremely lucky and privileged to have been able study in the UK. Get some perspective.

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donho199

422 503

Posted Jul 06, 2011 10:42

I find nothing surprise about this MSc programme. You guys can search my previous posts about studying in the UK especially MBA and Management masters and can find a lot of insights into one of the biggest bubbles.

MSc in Management is a very poor choice, it is for people not successful without a good job after your first degree or having secured a mere pass degree now they try to top it up with something fancy and Universities up and own the country were churning out useless degrees for nothing but the money

Among them is of course Warwick business school touted as one of the more famous brands among world education but the moment you step in, the bubble bursts to reveal its true colour.

In many ways this MSc in Management is useless and I wont hire anyone purely because of the education they acquired from this degree. Students were left to do a lot of reading and not enough of quantitative elements and not enough projects. Many of them came out with bunches of useless lines arguing about things that nobody is interested in.

If given a project they cannot do the excel modelling to prove their idea and forecasts and cannot do the techinical sides of the project on their own.

A lot of the things in the programme are very superficial. While I pushed a graduate on his understanding of economics , he was so poor that cannot link concepts such as inflaton, interest rate and employment. When I pressed a guy down on the excel modelling that they did, they have no knowledge of accounting and finance that they cannot do decent financial statements. Business analysis and modelling skills with Excel spreadsheet are one of the most important skills in management yet not covered.

A few evening, the students get on the bus to visit some companies office and call that immerson. Most students were only interested in taking pictures in Microsoft or Jaguar offices to post on facebook, they learned nothing.

The same case is for most other MSc in Management and some offsprings such as Msc in Management with specialisation in Finance from Universities such as Leeds or Druham. A bunch of useless degrees for failed graduates.

Now there is one student coming out and said he had job offers. Let me ask you what jobs are you getting? Do you get paid more than a graduate? Do you do have higher grade and title than a usual graduate? If this is one of the best business schools and best MSc in Management how many of you guys get into training programme? How many students get into management consulting? How many get into banking? How many foreign students get proper jobs?

That would be the proper way to measure this programme. The sad truth is the school cant publish the data because it is so damn pathetic

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donho199

422 503

Posted Jul 06, 2011 10:45

Can you please confirm that most of the asssessment is through writing essays called assignment?

The most useless way of learning and teaching management

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acropolis....

17 4

Posted Jul 06, 2011 11:01

good post sir, but any opinion about London business schools MIM or duke's MMS, they are just 1 year old, yet have a strong placement reports and standards of both the students and programmes are quite high. what do you say about these?

Thanks

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donho199

422 503

Posted Jul 06, 2011 11:45

I have idea about Duke programmme and very little about LBS one. Make sure you ask the right questions to the LBS alum and schools

They say the programme is excellent dont stop there. Why you say so? how do you measure excellence?

Do teachers in LBS MBA teach us? What is the depth and coverage of the class, can i attend a sample lecture.

How about dedicated career resources for Master in Management.

My advice to you guys are be very specific so that you are more aware and not easily buy into those bullshit by low class sales people from business school

Even the Cambridge MPhil in Management covers little depth of financial and quantitative topics yet they are sufficient for a good junior position.

LSE Master in Management programme is more solid.

Look at the Master in Management from French grande ecoles like HEC, ESCP or ESSEC, the first year is tougher than Warwick, the second year is like a master in finance. That is why they can get jobs

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acropolis....

17 4

Posted Jul 06, 2011 12:19

come on, LBS is a world class one and its MIM is up to it, see their 2010 placement report, very impressive for 1-year old programme, its application is tough and difficult to get in. i know people from LSE masters, still doing petty jobs for little cash. as you said a 2-year masters is good to understand the subject and clear your goals. but, LBS>HEC. LSE is the best for undergrad.

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mvv

17 4

Posted Jul 06, 2011 14:31

Hi Finp,

You should hope that prospective employers are not reading this as most will not want to employ moaners.

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Duncan

14.013 15.475

Posted Jul 06, 2011 15:10

I notice that the Warwick MM is not in the FT's rankings of pre-experience masters. 'Buyer beware' should the message here: the key issue for business school programme is the quality of the students going in, and the demand for the graduates coming out. You need to look at the placement statistics, and also see if the students are going where you want to go.

Looking at the FT ranking of MMs, and ranking them by salary, I see that many of the higher ranking schools are in Germany and France. The comment about strong quant skills is spot on but remember, European citizenship and language skills may also other drivers of salary.

Lastly, I think there's a big advantage here for large business schools, like London and HEC, which have deep relationships with employers.

However, for the person who has had this year at Warwick, perhaps they would be better off spending their time in learning from this experience.

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Finp

16 11

Posted Jul 06, 2011 19:47

Can you please confirm that most of the asssessment is through writing essays called assignment?

The most useless way of learning and teaching management

Yes, three out of thirteen modules were assessed by essays instead of exams. Here is the breakup.

Core Modules:
Corporate Performance - Essay (Dissertation)
Marketing - Exam
Strategy - Essay+Presentation

Electives:

Term one
Economics - Essay
People & Organisations - Exam+Presentation
Operations Management - Essay+Presentation

Term two:
Business IT & Services - Essay+Presentation
Financial Analysis - Essay
Corporate Finance - Exam

Term three
Corporate Responsibility - Essay+Presentation
Operations Research - Essay+Presentation
Entrepreneurship - Essay+Presentation
International Business - Essay+Presentation

Term three (summer term) modules were intensive in nature hence the school allocated only 15 hours teaching time for each were the teaching of each of the modules were completed within one week (5 days). Lecture time for each day was 3 hours so 3x5=15 hours. Honestly none understood anything in 5 days.

<blockquote>Can you please confirm that most of the asssessment is through writing essays called assignment?

The most useless way of learning and teaching management</blockquote>
Yes, three out of thirteen modules were assessed by essays instead of exams. Here is the breakup.

Core Modules:
Corporate Performance - Essay (Dissertation)
Marketing - Exam
Strategy - Essay+Presentation

Electives:

Term one
Economics - Essay
People & Organisations - Exam+Presentation
Operations Management - Essay+Presentation

Term two:
Business IT & Services - Essay+Presentation
Financial Analysis - Essay
Corporate Finance - Exam

Term three
Corporate Responsibility - Essay+Presentation
Operations Research - Essay+Presentation
Entrepreneurship - Essay+Presentation
International Business - Essay+Presentation

Term three (summer term) modules were intensive in nature hence the school allocated only 15 hours teaching time for each were the teaching of each of the modules were completed within one week (5 days). Lecture time for each day was 3 hours so 3x5=15 hours. Honestly none understood anything in 5 days.

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Finp

16 11

Posted Jul 06, 2011 20:06

come on, LBS is a world class one and its MIM is up to it, see their 2010 placement report, very impressive for 1-year old programme, its application is tough and difficult to get in. i know people from LSE masters, still doing petty jobs for little cash. as you said a 2-year masters is good to understand the subject and clear your goals. but, LBS>HEC. LSE is the best for undergrad.

Fact 1: LBS has very very strong alumni relations like INSEAD, Wharton etc. LBS MIM grads get good jobs because the school has superb alumni relations programme which helps novice MIM grads bag quality offers with the help of alumni recommendations. Warwick as I have said before, has pathetic alumni connections among MBAs & MScs. Sure do they have a dedicated alumni website but there are no job postings ever.

As far as LSE's MSc Management is concerned, its best in its class, most comprehensive and supremely competitive, and its better than what LBS has to offer. Its more difficult to get in at LSE than LBS. LBS produces MBAs, where as LSE produces Noble Laureates.

Fact 2: LBS & LSE needs GMAT to get in their MIM programme while at Warwick you don't need either GMAT/GRE so overall student quality is very poor. Most of them lacks basic mathematical skills.

<blockquote>come on, LBS is a world class one and its MIM is up to it, see their 2010 placement report, very impressive for 1-year old programme, its application is tough and difficult to get in. i know people from LSE masters, still doing petty jobs for little cash. as you said a 2-year masters is good to understand the subject and clear your goals. but, LBS>HEC. LSE is the best for undergrad.</blockquote>

Fact 1: LBS has very very strong alumni relations like INSEAD, Wharton etc. LBS MIM grads get good jobs because the school has superb alumni relations programme which helps novice MIM grads bag quality offers with the help of alumni recommendations. Warwick as I have said before, has pathetic alumni connections among MBAs & MScs. Sure do they have a dedicated alumni website but there are no job postings ever.

As far as LSE's MSc Management is concerned, its best in its class, most comprehensive and supremely competitive, and its better than what LBS has to offer. Its more difficult to get in at LSE than LBS. LBS produces MBAs, where as LSE produces Noble Laureates.

Fact 2: LBS & LSE needs GMAT to get in their MIM programme while at Warwick you don't need either GMAT/GRE so overall student quality is very poor. Most of them lacks basic mathematical skills.

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Finp

16 11

Posted Jul 06, 2011 20:24

Hi Finp,

You should hope that prospective employers are not reading this as most will not want to employ moaners.

I don't know if HR Manager of a company actually has the time to browse a forum like this but I sure do know that Warwick's Marketing and Recruiting Manager Ms.Rachel Killian does have such luxury because I remember one day she asked us to reply a prospective student's query on this forum to us through Warwick's intranet.

So if you happen to find a sudden increase in posts which glorify Warwick's MIM, don't be surprised, the school may not care about academics but as far as the reputation is concerned, its very cautious.

I am not a moaner, I just want everyone to know whats the truth. Internet is a powerful medium, it can make a brand and can even break it.

<blockquote>Hi Finp,

You should hope that prospective employers are not reading this as most will not want to employ moaners.</blockquote>
I don't know if HR Manager of a company actually has the time to browse a forum like this but I sure do know that Warwick's Marketing and Recruiting Manager Ms.Rachel Killian does have such luxury because I remember one day she asked us to reply a prospective student's query on this forum to us through Warwick's intranet.

So if you happen to find a sudden increase in posts which glorify Warwick's MIM, don't be surprised, the school may not care about academics but as far as the reputation is concerned, its very cautious.

I am not a moaner, I just want everyone to know whats the truth. Internet is a powerful medium, it can make a brand and can even break it.

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