Nazking15,

Like you I'm also considering an MBA in China, in fact my circumstances are nearly identical (London based, IB experience, LSE grad...) to yours. I've got some fluency in Mandarin (but nowhere near business level).

Perhaps unlike other languages that have more overlap between formal and informal uses of the language, the difference in Mandarin is pretty wide ie. a very different vocabulary list. As a result, picking up the formal bits isn't easy and I'm not sure that 2 years (or the duration of the MBA) is going to be sufficient. The risk is that I don't have a sufficient grasp of the language by the end of my MBA.

Granted that individual learning experiences will vary, but I would be interested in hearing what people's before and after standards of Mandarin are, after having spent some time in China.

Hi Lennier / Everyone!

I totally agree that learning a language (especially Mandarin) is almost always an excellent idea. I think the issue, at the moment, is one of timing. Lennier - I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this. How many years of experience do you have? When did you graduate (we might know each other!).

You may have already seen it (Bianca posted the link on this thread before) - www.find-mba.com/board/9083

So, using this as a guide (I think it is fairly accurate):

If you stat learning mandarin one year before, and then during the MBA, by the time you would finish, you would be in phase 3 - fluent listening/good speaking/some reading, which would put you in a good position to get a first job there. When you already work there and use mandarin in a business environment for some time, you would probably be in phase 4, and be able to get any almost any Job.

This is of course too general, but it can be used as a guide. Language learning ability is very individual... but you are the only one that can really know how fast you are!

Just wondering if anyone here has any real first-hand experience with the Tsinghua IMBA program? I got accepted into the program starting this fall and I'm wondering how easy it is to get an internship in China. Personally, I have my doubts about the education being offered from any Chinese MBA (as opposed to a top-20 rated US program), but I am excited about finally going to China nonetheless.

Note: I am a native-Chinese speaker from Taiwan

Personally, I have my doubts about the education being offered from any Chinese MBA (as opposed to a top-20 rated US program)

Really, why is that ? - i think that if there is one thing the Chinese are good at, is making business! just look at what they accomplished from the 80 till today.....

You may have already seen it (Bianca posted the link on this thread before) - www.find-mba.com/board/9083

So, using this as a guide (I think it is fairly accurate):

If you stat learning mandarin one year before, and then during the MBA, by the time you would finish, you would be in phase 3 - fluent listening/good speaking/some reading, which would put you in a good position to get a first job there. When you already work there and use mandarin in a business environment for some time, you would probably be in phase 4, and be able to get any almost any Job.

This is of course too general, but it can be used as a guide. Language learning ability is very individual... but you are the only one that can really know how fast you are!

Hi there,
sorry, I've been in and out and haven't been able to comment. The one thing I notice is that most people here recommend one year of learning mandarin. Although I agree with the learning chinese bit, I still personally think that one year is a lot of time to invest just to learn a language. Are you just learning the language during that one year and not working? Even if you invest one year, I can tell you--you will not be fluent in it enough to get a job, etc.

I still stick to my position. I would say, apply straight for Tsinghau/Pekin U. At most, just take an intensive course before the course. You will get to learn your chinese when you're immersed in the environment. Plus, the broken english that people speak in Beijing is enough to get you around if you don't understand what they're saying. Better learn that way than sitting in a class where you're kind "accomodated" for not knowing the language. The learning curve will be bigger when you're actually there.

Personally, I have my doubts about the education being offered from any Chinese MBA (as opposed to a top-20 rated US program)

Really, why is that ?

Two points 1) Most MBAs in China are fairly new and I would argue to a large extent still at an experimental stage, this is especially true for the IMBA programs. In 20 or 30 years they might turn out to be world class, but right now they are barely out of infancy. 2) The nature of Chinese education itself does not particularly transition well to an MBA environment, where the emphasis is/should be on networking rather than on taking classes/examinations.

Again, I would love for nothing more than to be proven dead wrong, since I am attending Tsinghua's IMBA this fall, but even so I would be foolling myself if I think the education I receive there will be on par with a top-20 US program. Like it or not, the top-US b-schools still set the bar for the rest of the world.

From my research, Tsinghua or PKU have "lower" requirements for foreign students (unlike for Chinese nationals). The reason is that foreign students is a good way to raise their profile.
Check out Tsinghua's requirements page (http://mba.sem.tsinghua.edu.cn/tabid/185/Default.aspx) and you'll find that the requirements are very poor, with WE being only optional.

I visited Tsinghua last week for a campus visit - from talking to students and administration, they mentioned that the GMAT average has gone up from 600 two years ago, 640 last year, to 670 this coming year. For international students with no work experience, the current students mentioned that it appeared those spots were for people who either aced the GMAT (750+) or those who have an undergrad from a top undergrad school (Harvard, Princeton, Oxford came to mind).

Many international students are interning at Chinese companies this summer to 1) improve their Chinese by being in a foreign work environment and 2) trying to add something unqiue/interesting to their resume that stands apart from Westerner MBAs trying to come to China when they graduate.

I did not get a chance to talk to BEIDA students, but the campus was prettier than Tsinghua. If anyone has insight on how BEIDA/CEIBS foreign students appear compared to Tsinghua, please post.

Many international students are interning at Chinese companies this summer to 1) improve their Chinese by being in a foreign work environment

Completely agree

2) The nature of Chinese education itself does not particularly transition well to an MBA environment, where the emphasis is/should be on networking rather than on taking classes/examinations.

do you care to elaborate on the difference between the education systems ?
it sound pretty much the same to me - the western education system is IMO also build around the exams. The Networking components are only strong in certain fields, like business education and Arts/Music.

Or is there a fundamental difference in approach?

Personally, I have my doubts about the education being offered from any Chinese MBA (as opposed to a top-20 rated US program)

Really, why is that ?

Two points 1) Most MBAs in China are fairly new and I would argue to a large extent still at an experimental stage, this is especially true for the IMBA programs. In 20 or 30 years they might turn out to be world class, but right now they are barely out of infancy. 2) The nature of Chinese education itself does not particularly transition well to an MBA environment, where the emphasis is/should be on networking rather than on taking classes/examinations.

Again, I would love for nothing more than to be proven dead wrong, since I am attending Tsinghua's IMBA this fall, but even so I would be foolling myself if I think the education I receive there will be on par with a top-20 US program. Like it or not, the top-US b-schools still set the bar for the rest of the world.

I think that when people pick to go study in China, the purpose isn't particularly centered around studying in that one program. People are hoping to gain more Chinese experience, to improve their Chinese language skills and to network with people inside and outside of the school in China. This overall Chinese experience is something that a US school cannot provide. Yes, perhaps the US schools have a better brand/reputation in general--but that honestly, is hearsay. Even if the ranks don't rank these Chinese schools favourably, I think we need to keep in mind that ranks have their own methodologies, and in some cases, their own agenda. Ranks are a good place to start when picking a school, but a bad place to end.

In terms of being not being on par with US schools---I'd debate that statement. You cannot compare getting a Chinese experience (general purpose of pursuing an MBA in China) and getting an American experience or whatever other reason people choose to stick witht he US top 20.

I think that when people pick to go study in China, the purpose isn't particularly centered around studying in that one program. People are hoping to gain more Chinese experience, to improve their Chinese language skills and to network with people inside and outside of the school in China. This overall Chinese experience is something that a US school cannot provide.

That's very true and it basically sums up why I am going to China for my MBA. Even though I am a native Mandarin speaker, I've actually never been to China, so I guess to some degree I fall into the tired cliche of "ABC going back to find his roots".

PS: While I agree with you about people getting an MBA in China for the "Chinese experience" and not necessary for the quality of the program itself, I would like to state that there are only two MBA programs I would even consider applying, Tsinghua and Beida. I know there's a lot of hoopola over CEIBS, but I can't get over the fact that it's a pure business school with no academic institution backing its name. To my knowledge, the only "real" successful example of this is INSEAD (please don't mention Thunderbird...), while almost ever reputable b-school has a solid academic institution behind it.

Interesting comment on CEIBS there. Is the lack of a non-MBA institution the only reason? How does having the non-MBA institution add to the value of the MBA?

Interesting comment on CEIBS there. Is the lack of a non-MBA institution the only reason? How does having the non-MBA institution add to the value of the MBA?

The reasons should be pretty obvious (larger alumni base, ie not just for b-school, brandname association). Serious, if you say you went to Tsinghua in China, everyone will know the school, it doesn't matter who they are. Now say you went to CEIBS, that name only carries weight amongst the business circles in Shanghai, chances are a taxi driver in Beijing wouldn't have a clue to what it is. But really I think the most important reason is that "pure" business schools are liable to go bankrupt/broke. This is a very serious issue. Heck Thunderbird was in dire financial straits one year and almost went under. Image how ironic it would be for a b-school to go broke. Not exactly a ringing endorsement. The reason for this is to look at how these schools are funded, most of them rely on a wealthy patron or tuition to stay afloat. CEIBS for example receives money from the Shanghai Municipal government and some European consortium, but since it is a private school there's really no guarantee that it will receive this "stipend" forever. Now schools like Harvard, Stanford, Yale are all private schools as well, but schools that are this large and well established have such a huge alumni base and alumni trust fund that it never has to worry about going broke (Harvard has an alumni trust fund of over 100 billion). The same cannot be said of "pure" b-schools, especially a relatively young school like CEIBS that simply does not have a huge alumni base.

mmm, a b school going broke - now that would be a lesson the students would never forget!

Interesting comment on CEIBS there. Is the lack of a non-MBA institution the only reason? How does having the non-MBA institution add to the value of the MBA?

The reasons should be pretty obvious (larger alumni base, ie not just for b-school, brandname association). Serious, if you say you went to Tsinghua in China, everyone will know the school, it doesn't matter who they are. Now say you went to CEIBS, that name only carries weight amongst the business circles in Shanghai, chances are a taxi driver in Beijing wouldn't have a clue to what it is. But really I think the most important reason is that "pure" business schools are liable to go bankrupt/broke. This is a very serious issue. Heck Thunderbird was in dire financial straits one year and almost went under. Image how ironic it would be for a b-school to go broke. Not exactly a ringing endorsement. The reason for this is to look at how these schools are funded, most of them rely on a wealthy patron or tuition to stay afloat. CEIBS for example receives money from the Shanghai Municipal government and some European consortium, but since it is a private school there's really no guarantee that it will receive this "stipend" forever. Now schools like Harvard, Stanford, Yale are all private schools as well, but schools that are this large and well established have such a huge alumni base and alumni trust fund that it never has to worry about going broke (Harvard has an alumni trust fund of over 100 billion). The same cannot be said of "pure" b-schools, especially a relatively young school like CEIBS that simply does not have a huge alumni base.

Another reason why some people may prefer an MBA program within a general university is the access to other programs (science, law, etc.) and the larger alumni base that includes the non-MBAs as well as the MBAs (this point already mentioned)

Pokey -- There seem to be a lot of stand alone business schools in Europe. I'm looking at schools in Spain and the most prestigious ones are not part of a larger university, namely IE, ESADE, IESE and EADA.

But, personally, I think I would like to go to school in a broader university setting. That's why I'm also considering Carlos III and UPF, which are big schools with decent mba programs...

If for nothing else, I'd like to be able to interact with more than just the 100 or so people in my MBA program! That seems like it would be like high school :P

Also, being able to take classes in other disciplines as electives is also attractive to me..

"......If for nothing else, I'd like to be able to interact with more than just the 100 or so people in my MBA program! That seems like it would be like high school :P Also, being able to take classes in other disciplines as electives is also attractive to me......."

you are absolutely right - this is very important IMO. a school just for business, full only with people who want to do business sounds completely boring to me! better a university where you get to interact with other human beings!
to me, it's not the networking thing - i see it more as a way to keep proportions. people cooked up in b schools can sometimes forget how interaction with non business people works!

Hey,

I just found this thread and am very interested in the discussion going on here. I have been admitted to Tsinghua for this fall, CEIBS for next fall (a practice of waitlisting a shortlist of applicants while also offering admission for the next school year), and waiting on a couple US-based programs. I am doing my due diligence to decide whether to attend Tsinghua, wait a year for CEIBS, or take my chances for the US programs (Top 40).

I am an ABC so can speak Mandarin fluently, while also a moderate level of reading and writing. I actually just spent a year studying Chinese in Taiwan at the Mandarin Training Center at National Taiwan Normal University. The plus of this program is that it's extremely cheap (~$600/semester) but there's only 2-3 hours classtime per day and since it's not a degree program, most students are not as intense as you might like to find. Also, it made sense for me since my extended family lives in Taipei, so easy for living/social life, though classmates are generally also a good way to meet people, but you may end up just speaking english with them. Alternatively there is the IUP, Inter-University Program, at Tsinghua which is renowned for its Mandarin learning program, but also VERY expensive, especially compared to MTC. The other difference is that MTC (in Taiwan) will teach traditional characters, while IUP will teach simplified. I think, like any language learning, you get what you put in, so all these generalizations on how long it'll take you to become fluent depends on you (and perhaps your natural ability to learn a language).

I guess for those of you on here, I am wondering what you think between attending Tsinghua this year, or waiting to attend CEIBS next year. I can certainly relate to the argument stated earlier about the plus of attending a business school with a full university behind it as opposed to a stand-alone b-school. But having dealt with these two schools over the last few months, I have to say I'm impressed with the marketing that CEIBS is undertaking and how it's helped them become more recognized internationally, and moving up the rankings by some publications. Of course, I also realize the subjectivity of said rankings, but the increased attention certainly can't hurt going forward as the school gets older and matures. Tsinghua, on the other hand, is less adept at the marketing aspect but can point to its status as one of the premiere schools in China. Both have its merits.

For me, going to China for my MBA is part-cliche (wanting to go back to my true roots in China, despite spending lots of time in Taiwan during my life) and part-economical (China is the next superpower and with my "limited" Chinese ability, I feel I have a real chance to get into the economy before it really takes off). Nevertheless, I like previous poster Pokey am not under some great illusion that I will get an education equivalent to a US top-20, but rather gain access to the alumni network and fellow Chinese classmates that exists at either school.

What do people think? Specifically, Pokey, what was the final measure for you to decide to go to Tsinghua? For those considering studying Chinese/ attending Chinese MBA, feel free to ask any questions, I'll be more than happy to tell you more about my experiences and thoughts.

-A

Hey device it's good to talk with someone else who also got accepted into the Tsinghua IMBA program this year. From your post it seems you are fairly young (under 25). The reason I'm saying this is that you said you just recently spent a year in Taiwan studying Mandarin; people who are older and have a mortgage to pay usually don't have that luxury. Like I already said the only two schools I would even consider in China are Beida or Tsinghua due to their academic strength and brandname recognition. At the end, I chose to apply to Tsinghua simply because Tsinghua is a tech school, while Beida is more of a liberal arts school; currently the Chinese government is investing massive amounts of money trying to develop a Mainland hi-tech sector similar in scale to Taiwan and South Korea and I believe Tsinghua will be in a better position to take advantage of this opportunity.

Device, if I were in your shoes I would definitely attend Tsinghua this year over sitting out another year for CEIBS. Please note that this is not a knock on CEIBS, I'd give you the same advice even if the situation was reversed meaning that I would also attend CEIBS this year instead of sitting out a year for Tsinghua. In my opinion these schools are close enough that it doesn't make sense to sit out a whole year for one or the other. Also I would be careful about attending/applying for schools in the US below the top 40; if you aim is to work in China/Asia Pacific region immediately after graduation, you really have to be aiming at the US top 20 or else you're probably just better off applying to an Asian MBA.

PS: I'm currently living in Washington DC, but I'll travel to Taiwan in early August to see my parents and drop some stuff off before heading out to Beijing.